It is Called "Sadism"

It all began innocently enough. A question was posed on a listserve that Master participates in (He has far more tolerance for this sort of thing than I do). The group identifies as a D/s Newcomers list, and the questioner asked if there was anyone who actually identified as a "sadist." Master responded like this:

I am an absolutely totally unrepentant sadist whose "infliction of choice" is spanking and related arts. I've never met a woman under the age of seventy I didn't want to spank...not as they want to be spanked so it will "feel good" to them, but as I enjoy it. Nothing is better than when my partner feels hysterically desperate to do anything to stop the blistering she is receiving and has absolutely no way to bring the spanking she is receiving under her control (other than her safe word and, alas, nothing is happening toher that is "unsafe" and she knows if she safes inappropriately she'll be even more severely punished.) I love being a sadist. I was born to it.

That was a couple of weeks ago. It really didn't cause much comment or reaction; one of those tidbits that gets dropped into the giant pond of online discourse and vanishes with hardly a ripple... At least, that was the way things stood until a person (who has apparently been "too busy" to keep up with things) checked back in in the last couple of days and came across His comments. This person, who identifies as "sweetiesub" but who shall be known for the remainder of this piece as "Little Miss Know It All," became seriously incensed and horrified over Master's description of His sadistic practice, and took it upon herself to set Him, and everyone else on the list straight. There has been quite an amazing dialog between them, and I have just been left shaking my head. I'm including the dialog, pretty much unedited, for your edification... I only wish I could convey to you the tone of voice that I hear when I read what she writes...

hi all, I've been back reading & catching up. I've been a bit too busy lately, and reading back-posts in the board has been both a diversion from other worries, *and* a point of contact (well, as far as contact on the Internet goes) with people who are doing more than leases, paint costs, electrical design costs, organizing dungeon cleaning/moving work parties, & keeping on top of twenty-seven levels of organizational issues! Not to sound overly important, it's just that everyone I am really close to is either involved in that (as I am too) or otherwise very busy. Many "fried" people. SO I've come back to try to divert my brain by catching up withNewcomers when I'm home. (I've also found fields of fireflies very therapeutic, at least until the Moon started to wax very Full.) Anyhoo. Did anyone else not pause to wonder what was meant in the below post? Can a person "safe inappropriately"? Does the dynamic of being punished more severely for safewording exist in anyone else's SM sessions? If this had been a description of a disciplinary action, aka punishment, would it have made more sense (as it would have to me)? (in D/s, Safewording during a punishment is really not an option unless one is being injured or having a severe freak-out whilst the D keeps on punishing.)
The concept that those with whom I practice BDSM follow is that a "safe" word is what it says. It is a word that is intended to keep one "safe." If a bottom partner is going blind, having chest pain, has lost sensation in her limbs, is unable to breathe, losing consciousness, or any other health and safety issue then the bottom partner is not only expected to use his/her safeword.....but is absolutely required to do so. The presumption is that the bottom partner has agreed to participate in a session of sadomasochism and realizes that means that pain is going to be inflicted on him or her. She has entrusted herself to her partner (i. e., me) and is entering into that session consensually and based upon a desire she has to experience what has been agreed to. It is also anticipated that the nature of what is to occur has been discussed and agreed to. In my sessions if one who has asked to receive pain then "safewords" not because they are in circumstances that are unsafe, but because they have decided that they now don't like what they agreed to, that is considered to be using a safeword inappropriately. The experiencing of pain when consensually playing with a sadist is not unsafe. Pain, in and of itself, is not unsafe. And yes, I do, and very much have punished women for using a safeword to end a session when there was nothing unsafe occurring to them. I have only once had someone safe appropriately. This is not because none of my partners have ever experienced health and safety threats during a scene, but because generally, I perceive those issues in my partners before they ever get to the point of "safewording," stop the scene, and do whatever is necessary to correct the situation. Quite frankly, if I get to the point where a partner has to "safeword" to head off a health/safety issue, I feel I have failed to practice appropriate empathic observation in the interest of my partner.
As a sadistic scene "issue", referring to her knowledge of inappropriately safewording to get out of the pain makes no sense to me ... and I play with sadists almost exclusively. I am a sadism-slut but pain does not always bring me pleasure, especially if I am being brought/pushed over the edge of my tolerance constantly in a scene.
As a sadistic scene issue using a safeword TO get out of pain makes absolutely no sense. If you want to avoid being subjected to the infliction of pain beyond your control then don't engage in sadomasochism. The infliction of pain beyond your control is the essence of the definition of bottoming in a sadomasochistic experience. If you want to have someone inflict pain on you in ways that you find to "feel good" for you, then hire yourself a "service top" who is not a sadist, and whose role is to serve you by creating your desired sensations as you control the scene. I'm a sadist. Your enjoyment of the pain in our scene (or not) is your responsibility. Not only do I not mind if you don't enjoy the pain. I enjoy it more if you do not. (There are certainly some times with my family members when I do play with them working to achieve mutual satisfaction, because it pleases me to, but then too, they do not safeword unless they are having a safety issue.) By the way much of the play I do is disciplinary style play and/or actual discipline. It is what I/we enjoy
Is this concept, incorporating the thought that a safeword if used might be "inappropriate," merely a different "play style" than mine &/or what I am used to in New England?
I'm a long standing practitioner and have had many partners from all over, including people from New England. There really is not a regional difference in this regard. I expect your style preference and perhaps experiential limitations have led you to these opinions.
I am not looking for universal condemnation of raheretic's choices.
How generous of you! I was so hoping you would not have me excommunicated by the National Association of Service Tops or something:)
For those he is involved with, this may be the "meat & potatoes" of any scene.
Yes, it is, and disgusting depraved perverts we are each and every one.
However when I read this I felt I was in quicksand, not understandingthe dynamics being referred to.
Expanding one's horizons is often feels that way.
Tom, you have misunderstood my point of view. Let me try to be between the two of us, since your misunderstanding is directed *to* me directly, in your reply. Anyone who wants to is welcome to read along.
I responded directly to you in that your original post was specifically about me and my described practice and questioned the degree of universal condemnation that should be sought of my practice.
My original post was *not* directed at you, but rather intended to inquire if others felt any similar lack of complete understanding to your view on inappropriately safewording. An appropriate question for a newcomers' group. Although I'm single & have not entered a service or submissive relationship in a longish while, I have sessioned to understand the general levels of what my body can tolerate & how I can process pain, and have learned a few things along the way about sustaining heavy bruising, & bleeding & scarring. I can offer more about the sadism my body has undergone, & which I've mentally processed, if anyone likes. First in response to your implications of my short comings in experience,
I never in anyway addressed shortcomings of yours in any way. I did say I suspect your perspectives are limited by your experience. All of our perspectives are limited by experience. I certainly, though very experienced, do not, nor would I ever, claim to know the experience of all or even most others. The fact is I know what I've experienced either directly or through learning from others. It has appeared at several points in both your posts that you are somehow far more omniscient and appear to believe you know the practices of huge numbers of people throughout significant regions of the world.
Tom: I session with sadists, though the ones I'm mutually interested in are by their nature actively interested in the positive responses a female body can have, as well as the sadistic pain responses. In other words, I do not session with sadists who'd never, in other moments with other partners, take pleasure in heightening the female hormonal reactions to body play.
I am glad for you and your partners that you have found mutually satisfying outlets for your sensual/erotic orientations. I must admit confusion in terms of what you are describing here. I'm likely being dense. I've read this sentence over several times and can get no sense of what you are trying to express.
IOW I don't session with people who are utterly dead to the appeal & rewards of pure pleasure, or whose degree of sadism simply leaves that out of the equation. I do session with men who get horny & hard from hurting me without having any sexual contact.
Would I assume that you are somehow categorizing me as being "dead to the appeal & rewards of pure pleasure"? And you have accused me of being condescending and judgmental!
I scene with sadists without sexual contact. What I get out of that is someone who's embraced the yin & yang of both sadism & their ability to invoke sexual desires, even if I never get to experience the latter side of the balance. What you describe regarding your sadism style is not only familiar to me, but familiar from firsthand experience, with the exception being the inclusion of punishment if I chose to end the activity. I don'tnormally suggest use of safewords, although I play with dominants who accept that they are de rigeur in a play environment & who do check if we are on the same page about them, so in a sense we do utilize safewords, though they don't come into use. I would be fine if they didn't ask about them, since I am certain already of the dominant's character & style, before asking/agreeing to session. My reply is taking a personal tack so far, because that is how your reply was designed - to suggest by implication & outright that I did not understand the realities of play with sadists.
There is nothing in my reply that in any way describes your understanding of play with sadists of any sort. You have in both your earlier post and in this one attempted to claim that since my BDSM practice is not one you are familiar with, it should be subjected to condemnation, is exploitive, is based on being dead to rewards of pleasure, and is unique to me and me alone, and contrary to the teachings of the entire East Coast of the United States. You must be awfully broadly experienced and hugely expertly knowledgeable to cast such judgments on others. And now you are claiming it was I who was condescending and offensive.
Now for the safeword issue. (Of interest to all, I'd think.) Why is it inappropriate to safeword to stop a session? 'Red' or whatever the strongest safeword may be, is the standard for:"Stop the session instantly, no more, not even one or two more, I need to get out of the scene,"
You'll get no argument from me. That is how I/we use safewords.
in my neck of the woods. Even if it all *is* synonymous for "I can't take any more."I find the "Red means stop what you are doing right now but don't endthe scene" safeword-style which some people use to be an inappropriate concept of safewording, but that is their choice. All that matters is that *they* understand what they are doing. (I even made it clear to all the readers in my post that the same variation of the standards might be true in your case.)
I don't find anyone's concept of safewording inappropriate for anyone other than for those with whom I am playing. If we have an informed agreement based on our relatedness that this is how we will play then that is what is appropriate for us. Quite frankly what others may think of the appropriateness of our choices is irrelevant. Likewise it is presumptuous in the extreme to decide whether or not others choices are appropriate of not.
But there *are* standards.
And who is it that sets these standards? I have been around this for decades and somehow have missed the BDSM Board of Arbiters who have established these standards you wish applied to the BDSM practice of me and mine.
The Red-means-the-session-ends standard's going to be the entry point for most newcomers into the world of sadomasochism.
I don't know how we got into this discussion of what is appropriate for new comers in the world of sadomasochism. I responded to a post asking if there were readers here who could identify with being termed a sadist. I made it clear that I wholeheartedly do identify as a sadist. In that response I described some very basic premises of my BDSM practice. That led to your attack. Certainly mentoring novitiates into "The Life" requires a developmental progression in learning to actualize their aspirations. I have mentored others and had the great good fortune to be mentored by some wonderfully experienced folks when I was new. But there was nothing in what I wrote, or in the request it was written in response to, that dealt with mentoring newbies regarding safewords or anything else. If our discussions may only use terms appropriate to the rankest new folks in response to any and all questions, the conversations here will need to change dramatically. The style of not allowing someone to use a safeword, & punishing them for it, is in all that I have ever heard or experienced, reserved to/for dedicated slaves to a specific family/house or dominant, never for general practice. (Except certain mysterious, off-the-BDSM-tourist-path Chateaus of Maledom/femalesub slavery which sound like extracts from The Story of O.)
Once again, why is it that your ".....all that I have ever heard or experienced," been exalted to a point that you may judge as appropriate or inappropriate the practice of others whose experience happens not to have been yours? I have encountered new practices at just about every one of the BDSM conferences I've attended over the years. I don't decide because they are not like anything I've heard of or experienced before, they must be wrong or inappropriate. Even if they would not be my choice, they are certainly appropriate for those who consensually choose them for themselves.
Not allowing safewords *at all* is something I understand. "D" is an example of someone who's often written a compelling treatise on this style, which has no safewords whatsoever. Punishment for safewording is something personal to you, and you've elaborated very well on it. Your explanation of how it means "safe" or"unsafe" is rational & clearly provides the context which your earlier post did not. So far so good. Your comments towards me about expanding my horizons was pure condescension, and IMO this should not happen in a newcomers' group.
Actually, no they were not condescending. The practice I've written about is not that rare, even if it is new to you. You expressed feeling a sinking feeling when you learned of this practice. It is not uncommon for people who first encounter a practice that is foreign to their experience to have similar feelings. It is also not uncommon particularly if that practice flies in the face of passionately held assumptions (and it would appear that my having made the mistake of describing my practice somehow violated some extremely passionately adhered to values of yours to warrant your vitriolic response) to develop reaction formation as a defense mechanism to attempt to resolve their resulting cognitive dissonance. There has been tremendous amounts of condescension in our correspondence, but it has not occurred on this end of the exchange.
We're all here to attract people & inform them.
Inform, yes, support certainly, but I see no reason to attract anyone........maybe the Christian right has us nailed. The evil BDSM'ers are out their trying to ensnare poor unsuspecting folk into lives of godless perversion:)


I'm not sure. I suspect the conversation that was sparked by all of that continues, and perhaps there are some who are actually getting "good" information out of all the nonsense

There's a part of me that is running an ongoing "lecture" in my head directed toward "Little Miss Know It All," giving her what I consider to be the benefit of my experience and wisdom as a lifestyle submissive and slave -- because, after all, I live this and I can point to dozens of places in her little diatribe where someone who claims to be "submissive" is way off the mark... The more reasonable, more (hopefully) mature, and graceful part of my brain is well aware how arrogant and inappropriate that would be.


So, maybe I'll use this little exchange to refresh the lessons that I knew or have learned along the way -- not for anyone else, but just for me:

• When someone says this is what I/we do, or this is how I/we am/are, I'll try to remember to listen carefully and openly. I'll watch myself for strong reactions that may lead me to make judgements that are grounded in my own biases and fears.

• I'll speak (and write), when I speak, respectfully and gently. I'll try to remember that the tone of my words can invite and welcome others to dialog -- or create distance and dissension.

• I'll be mindful that my experience is limited. I'll keep in mind that I am a learner, and that there may be others who have experiences that are beyond what I have seen, tried, experienced, or contemplated. When I encounter something new, I will recognize that I am seeing something that is outside my experience. I will feel free to explore and question things that I do not know or understand, but I will try to avoid moving to condemn or judge based on my own limitations.

• I'll understand that not everyone lives, practices, plays, or relates in the same ways as I do. I will assume that there will be some "ways" that will be outside of the boundaries of my comfort zone. When that occurs, I will understand that I may choose to not participate or endorse without any need to attack or tear down.

swan