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8/03/2009

Say It Isn't So


In her comment on Master's mentoring post, Selkie asked if we really had identified our practice with DD as she'd always associated Domestic Discipline "with the fanatical christian sects."

I'd say that the sense of unease that Selkie expresses as she reads us claiming that "Domestic Discipline" label is understandable. Far from it's roots as a particular expression of the spanking subculture; in which spanking is used for discipline with limited or no overt sexual connotation, DD seems to have become a political and cultural ghetto where the residents adamantly defend the boundaries against encroachment from those who don't "measure up."

When we speak to the inclusion of domestic discipline within the overarching context of our BDSM dynamic, we mean what we say. There is a portion of our dynamic that is purely disciplinary; that is intended to create household order; that acknowledges the potential that an otherwise capable and dependable adult person could find some value in relating to another adult around the concept of corporal punishment as a disciplinary tool. For example, very early in the relationship between Master and T, dd was the tool they used to facilitate and promote Master's efforts to stop smoking. T assumed the role of disciplinarian, even as she remained His submissive, and together, they worked out a plan that moved Him closer and closer to an eventual complete cessation of a life-long smoking addiction.

People come into BDSM in a variety of ways, and domestic discipline is, for many, a sort of gateway. That was the case for me. I'd tried for years and years to get my husband (a nice-enough fellow who just saw it all as "sick" and "perverted") to spank me and control me. It was never his thing. Eventually, with the appearance of our very first personal computer, I searched the Internet for "spanking," and came across two sites that changed my life: Vicki Blue's Domestic Discipline, and Robin Wittle's Fondly and Firmly. I, personally, have very little regard for either source of information, and I am inclined to feel the same way about the successor cyber "guru" site -- Taken in Hand. Both of the early sites were dedicated to the theory and practice of domestic discipline. At the Vicki Blue site, the practice of dd was described like this:
"In this household, the loving husband/boyfriend provides firm, consistent authority. He appreciates and encourages the intelligence and accomplishments of his partner while setting up loving boundaries. There is no question that those boundaries will be enforced. How they are enforced depends on his partner. For some, a look is all it takes. For others, the loss of privileges is more effective. Ocassionally a spanking is needed to get the point across and bring her back in line.
In this household the intelligent, accomplished wife/girlfriend provides love and nurturing support and companionship while observing the authority of her partner. She understands that her actions have consequences and accepts her partner's role and guide as mentor, protector and disciplinarian. This is easy for her because she understands that he loves her and cherishes her above all others and that he will only correct her for her benefit.
We aren't talking about BSDM here. We aren't talking about Master/Slave relationships. We aren't talking about humiliation and degradation."

Robin Wittle (who these days writes under the pseudonym, Mr. Fondman) put it like this:
...sometimes, there can be aspects of a woman's thinking and behavior which might be called "womanly devils" or "imps". This condition can afflict even the finest, most wonderful women. Rather than ignore such problems, many women and men agree that discipline and spanking can be the best approach to avoiding the corrosive behavior which would otherwise result...

Now, like Selkie, there were (and are) huge chunks of that foolishness that set my feminist nerves to jangling; but I was a desperate and deprived woman with a powerful orientation to spanking and power-exchange. So, I put my screaming inner feminist into a metaphorical straight jacket and a ball gag, and stuffed her into a metaphorical closet. Armed with these "oh so wise" bits of information, I was able to convince my very unimaginative and vanilla spouse to try spanking. After all, it was about keeping order in the household and creating harmony. Perfectly nice people could spank like this...and besides, there was nothing to be done -- I was possessed of "demons and imps." I honestly didn't care that it was utter nonsense, if it got me what I was craving, then I was willing to go along.


The thing that I think makes it hard for most people to look at our dynamic and see the domestic discipline part of it is that, inside of our bDDSm dynamic, the dd actually works. There are expectations for the way each of us behave, and since we are mature and responsible and intelligent adults who love and care for one another, we all work really hard at living up to those expectations. The need for "punishment" to be administered for infractions of the rules is practically non-existent. Once everyone understands what is expected, the need to spank for disciplinary reasons can and does go entirely away, AND, since Master and I both have orientations toward spanking, we spank because we do -- it doesn't fall into the disciplinary realm more than very, very occasionally.

The thing about most domestic discipline centered dynamics is that the action centers around rules that are supposed to be imposed by and enforced by the HOH (head of household -- a sort of stuffed shirt designation that must have been lifted from the IRS tax code). If the rules don't get followed appropriately, then the HOH is supposed to extract the agreed upon penalty (almost always a spanking). If, for whatever reason, the wife (because it is almost always the wife who suggests, and even insists on this whole set up) breaks one of the rules, and the HOH doesn't spank her like he is supposed to, then he is guilty of a lack of consistency. If, as is the case except in the most egregiously manipulative cases, there is no "real" reason to spank, then the HOH is supposed to administer regular and carefully nuanced "maintenance" spankings. The whole, carefully phrased, precariously balanced construct serves (usually) to keep the nominally "bottom" partner firmly in control while the nominally, "top" partner works really hard to establish and maintain a dynamic that meets her needs; run exactly as she envisions it; and is administered in precisely the way she imagines it is supposed to be. The control almost never leaves the hands of the woman who initiates the whole dynamic. Selkie, you are right in this regard -- DD, practiced like that, would never fly in our household.

Now, it is true, as Selkie points out that there have come to be a plethora of practitioners of something that purports to be domestic discipline under the guise of religiously based or scipturally based justifications. In most cases, this sort of thing is espoused by fundamentalist believers of whatever persuasion: Christian, Jew, Muslim... I don't participate in the myth-driven hysteria that fuels these religions, and so I cannot speak to the thinking or philosophy that drives their particular flavor of DD. I will say that many of these folks adhere to a belief in women as property that is entirely non-consensual, imposed by an outside force, and non-negotiable. As such, I do not believe that this sort of practice can be compared, from an ethical standpoint, to the varieties of BDSM that do pivot, at some very basic level, on consent of the participants. Too, in almost every variety of "faith-based" domestic discipline practice, there is the primary assumption that the practice is for discipline only and should contain no hint of eroticism. Great effort and energy is expended to encourage people to practice in ways that eliminate any scintilla of sexual excitement or hedonistic pleasure from the act of spanking. Craziness! When adult partners engage in the intense intimacy of spanking, there WILL be erotic heat generated. To deny it is simply dishonest -- and patently foolish.

So. Yes. We do practice a form of power-exchange that has some of its roots in the precepts of domestic discipline. We do that in the same context as we practice all the rest of the things we do that might be identified as BDSM. We don't distinguish, saying: "this is one thing, and that is another." We expect each adult in our family to behave as an adult, and we trust one another to be able to know what that looks like. We each have chosen this path to actualize our sexual and erotic connectedness with one another and we do not experience it as shameful, degrading, or humiliating. We do it with intent. We attempt to do it with integrity. There are elements of our relating that are extreme and very serious while others are quite light-hearted and great fun. We don't parse it out into all the various subsets. Perhaps it is simply that we've been doing it for a good long while, but it feels pretty seamless to me.


swan

11 comments:

  1. Harsh, somewhat judgmental, not what I would have expected from you.

    That being said, I feel all discipline, punishment, pain-inflicting activities within the BDSM dynamic are inherently sexual. Including DD as practiced by some. However, the demeaning, coarse behavior you describe here is not what I believe a true power-exchange relationship within a monogamous partnership to be. You have highlighted the behavior of some, not most, certainly not all and painted a large number of people with a broad brush unfairly.
    All of paragraph 10 was about a specific kinky construct called DD. So if the called it M/s would it be easier to swallow? Perhaps for some but not for those who strive with everything they have not to be associated with 'those' people. Thus the highjacking of the word DD, makes it more palatable. But you are no ones fool and can see above, beyond and around that curtain. Why are you painting DDers with that brush?
    There are men, in this case I am speaking of men; conservative, liberal, none of the above who think they are entitled to treat their wives and women that way just because they got scotum and she didn't. How does this behavior spread across society at large become the calling card of DD? I participate in DD, I am a spanko, I am nobodies fool. I have friends who are DD and I will speak from experience when I say they are not either.
    As a Christian I am clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible in no way shape or form encourages, endorses nor requires domestic discipline, spanking as a form of interaction between partners. And if some kinksters get it in their heads that they simply must attach their C to their DD the issue that is most frightening is the attempts to limit choice in the matter - not some insecure rascal treating another insecure rascal poorly. Him doing it without her consent is more disturbing.
    There are women who are seeking a traditional structure all over the DD/Spanko sites because someone told them they would find a responsible partner there. Not because they are expecting to be infantalized and degraded. There are predators hard at work doing just that, using the sources you sited, (how did you miss Mr LDD or Mr AKM). We should be concerned about drawing light to those people not spraying the innocent with such baseless charges.
    I understand that you attempted to follow the person's you noted above when you first researched DD but you yourself have identified them as frauds so why are holding them as examples of what DD is all about when they continue to be seen as frauds today?
    There are many, many mature individuals and sites that focus on the ideas and structure of DD that have far more credibility and are much more inclusive, thoughtful and respectful.
    The behavior you attribute to DD is the same behavior attributed to BDSM does that make it okay for someone to take inaccurate information and slur a lifestyle?
    Not cool.
    P

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  2. Pretty Girl, I decided a few months back that I am no longer interested in debating DD vs. BDSM or, more accurately, my belief that DD is, in fact, a specialized form and practice of BDSM. I don't intend to re-enter one of those conversations here.

    If you are interested, there are a dozen or more Blog posts archived here with reasoned discussions and debates of those issues by readers here and of course the three of us (which posts, are by the way, some of our most frequently visited archives when we review our Blog's stats.) Additionally there are numerous LISTSERVS (some of which swan mentioned here in a diminuitve light) where you can find my(and our)discussions of these never ending debates. There was one not a month ago on Fet Life.

    As you reread your comment you need to be aware that we too are spanko's. We discuss the term bDDsm, which we coined to describe our DD practice within the overarching cultural context of BDSM. Thus, it should be clear that we don't perceive the two constructs as mutually exclusive in the slightest. Were we to somehow say that everyone who practices DD is wrong, we would be impugning ourselves.

    We are however entitled to our perspectives of the predominate practices of DD, as well as, BDSM and polyamory for that matter. If you would be interested, you would likely find we are not at all accepting of a good many fairly hypocritical aspects of BDSM and polyamory as many of these construct's gurus describe them, as well. There is a reason why my online identity (actually developed in response to a long ago Vicki Blue derogation of BDSM and its practitiioners as being inferior to DD'ers)contains the primary word "heretic." We (meaning my two and I) tend to speak out against the orthodoxy of all three of the primary aspects of our family's lifestyle and sensual erotic orientation, i.e., DD, BDSM, and polyamory.

    Thank you for responding, and for caring enough to stand up in the face of what you plainly thought was an unjust characterization of prevailing thought and practice in the DD Community. I'm afraid I absolutely do not see it as you appear to.

    In fact, I thought swan's post was terrifically articulate, well reasoned, and appropriate to the subject matter.

    Tom

    Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you've imagined.

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  3. My own exposure to DD has been fairly recent (i.e. in contrast to my interest in, participation in and familiarity with BDSM constructs) - and until REALLY recently, almost exclusively consisted of blogs I came across where the Christian, bible-thumping group espoused this as the "correct" way based (as pretty girl succintly points out) on owning a scrotum (or not) LOL.

    Now truth be told, pretty girl- while I love some of your thoughts, I didn't get the same gut reaction from swan's articulate post.

    In fact, I thank you swan for explaining so clearly the perception of you and yours and how you interpret your world.

    In fact it simply emphasizes for me the reason I enjoy so much your writings and those of Tom and t. - I think in many ways our approach to life and how we live our lives is very similar.

    Not in the way I build what is comfortable for me (I am, when all is said and done, very monogomous LOL) but in the thought that is behind it, the openness and the willingness to rethink things- to take what works for you out of a certain concept and make it work within your exclusive realtionship.

    Certaintly, I'm a lot more comfortable now that I'm getting to know people within a relationship that could loosely be labelled DD or HOH - while not able to really relate to it, I can enjoy the insights and thoughts of the individuals within those relationships and appreciate and be grateful for learning the differences and the nuances!

    Thank you again for this wonderful explanation!

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  4. I have never posted here, have followed your blog both here and your transforming blog, silently cheering you along and gleaning from all of your writings a true open minded and accepting attitude...how could you not have? So, last night when i read Swans post, I struggled. I vacillated from: huh, I don't agree with all she said, but hey its her blog, to wait a minute, someone needs to offer another approach here, because though it is YOUR blog, people read it like any other blogs for direction and "expert" advice.

    I honestly laid in my bed last night formulating how I would respond if I chose to. The really odd thing is that I had a thought of responding to your post Tom about mentoring also, and these two instances are the first two I ever thought to respond to. From following you all for a while, I learned we live in the same general area and thought that maybe one day my husband and I would be able to meet you all...but that is another post or email.

    So, that said. My husband and I could probably be titled DD'ers, but I tend to think that no one ever fits neatly into any title, if they do, they are probably just trying to be something instead of living how they need to and letting the rest just happen. And we are Christian, open minded more than most Christians would probably be comfortable with but Christian none the less. So, like some DD'ers we identify with CDD, maybe, a little. In that i mean, we both believe that without Christ in EVERYTHING we do, WE, could not prosper. FOR US, he is there, in our marriage, in parenting, in our jobs (we are military), in our sex life and somewhat in discipline. Neither of us believe the Bible says ANYTHING about DD, spanking your spouse etc...however he and I both believe whole heartedly that as Christians we are called to live according to Gods order and that means that I am my husbands partner, equal in worth but not in authority. Again, this is our belief and not something we feel anyone else is "supposed" to do, it just works for us. So, he does seek Christ in matters of leading this house and when that means discipline, well, then it is no different than any other aspect of our life, we seek Christ.

    Now, I completely agree that DD is linked and in fact a part of BDSM. We of course experience sexual excitement in discipline, even when that discipline is because of something that has nothing to do with and is not intended to lead to sex. We at least acknowledge that both of us derive enjoyment from not only the connection of physical correction but I from feeling the pain and knowing he has that power in our relationship and he from inflicting or at least the power to do so. We realize and embrace that we are kinky in most peoples eyes, goodness, aren't most people in some form or fashion? We spank for fun too, and I guess the people that like to label things would say we are in a power exchange relationship in and out of the bedroom.

    I guess my point in this is not to debate, as you have said Tom, you have no intention of doing that but I wanted to offer the thoughts anyhow. We DD'ers or even CDD'ers are no more easily put into a box than BDSM'ers or polyamory folks or Christians for that matter and I for one am glad about that. I don't like to see CDD folks bash BDSM, anymore than i like to see BDSM folks make fun of people for including Christ in all that they do. Cause in my mind, if you are committed to each other and CHOOSING to do what you are doing, who the flip care what the title is or if what you are doing makes sense to the rest of the world?

    Keep writing, and I will keep reading :)
    tc

    I don't have a blog, or I would tag this post with a link but if any of the three of you would like I would send you my email, just won't post it here.

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  5. See, swan, that's why I love reading this blog. While our lifestyles may be very different on some levels, they're pretty darned close on others.

    I truly believe we DO practice DD, although until recently I didn't have a name for it. Ron established himself as the person in charge the day he moved in with me. He sets the rules and I abide by them, without argument, because I am submissive.

    Punishment? A look is more than enough. Anger is a very strong deterrent. So because I am a responsible adult I conform to his expectations.

    Spanking is never a punishment, and there are no maintenance spankings either. Its only function is as erotic foreplay along with stress relief.

    This is something I've mulled over since I first found out what DD was. You've cleared up that puzzle for me.

    Hugs,
    Hermione

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  6. I guess I find myself a little confused at some of the strong reactions. I've read this over several times and nowhere do I see anywhere that swan is impugning other choices - be it how others live their lives, what they call their lifestyle or otherwise?

    It seems to me she is simply deliniating clearly how SHE, Tom and t. practice THEIR lives and how their perceptions and what they term their lifestyle encompasses.

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  7. Impish13:19 PM

    I think it was probably the part where (sorry, Swan) she describes "most" DD as not only requested by the woman, undoubtedly true, but goes on to say the HOH "works really hard" to "maintain and establish " "and run" it "exactly as she envisions it", leaving the conrol in the hands of the woman who initiates the dynamic, trying to run" it precisely as she imagines it is supposed to be". I don't imagine that's the way anyone sees their DD dynamic. From what I've read on other sites, that's dd gone wrong. Certainly, that negative pattern is one we see online a lot, but hopefully it is not most. I'm not a dd participant, so I can't say, but I just thought I could see what made a few people feel defensive on that front.
    Swan, great post on your own dynamic. I believe greatly as you do, that the key to all families is very simple: family members just have care about each other and be fully grown adults. Unfortunately, that can be a rare thing in today's world.

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  8. I also used DD as a stepping stone to what we ended up becoming (and I don't have a word for what we are, so...whatever we are, that's it). I learned about DD when I stumbled across "Taken in Hand" 6 years ago.

    Outgrew that site in time.

    Btw, just as a warning to anyone posting/reading there (and I keep saying this whenever the topic is brought up) Taken in Hand edits comments. Not by deleting them but actually *changing* what you write. Adding or taking away words willy-nilly according to what the editor thinks you *should* have written. Just FYI.

    Swan, I thought this was an interesting and thoughtful post and I particularly liked the part where you described how certain couples do DD where the entire relationship is orchestrated by the wife. My god, I've only watched that play out a bazillion times. "You're not spanking me enough/right/when/where/etc., damn it, how many times do I have to tell you, Husband?" "Yes, dear wife..."

    I liked your term "myth-driven hysteria", too. Yeah...

    Michael Jackson's face on a tortilla. You wait! You think I'm kidding, but there will be a Michael Jackson religion soon enough!

    With one white glove as the symbol...

    Just wait! ;)

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  9. OH! I forgot! I wanted to say how much I loved the spanking Jesus pic at the top!

    That just made my whole day. :)

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  10. I have to agree with Selkie in that I also did not find anything troublesome in this post. I found this to be insightful as I find with all that you write, Swan. I have been bashed by a couple of DD wives when I first started blogging (not all, there are quite a few I greatly respect - and you as well, although I hadn't realized this about your relationship until Tom mentioned the bDDsm.) and was chided for not trying harder when I expressed that that dynamic was not working for us. It felt like I was being pushed to ask for all those "supposed to" that you've mentioned and that was not right for me. The Lord Krishna will do things the way he wants, and isn't that what this is about when we do this thing we do? Later I was dropped from a couple of blogrolls and that just left me feeling like there was yet another elitist club where I don't belong. One more thing: the couple of DD wives that I'm thinking about here in my own mind, not the majority of bloggers I read, seemed to be saying that there was a level of seriousness to their dynamic that wasn't there in others. I felt uncomfortable with the idea that laughter and giggles were not welcomed in their spanking relationships.

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  11. Master -- thank You so much for your elegant endorsement of what was written here. I love You. Yours always and all ways.

    Prettygirl -- thanks for your comment. I honestly don't follow most of your arguments, and I am a little surprised by the defensive tone, but you are surely welcome here anytime.

    Selkie -- I am always glad to hear from you. Your writing is so elegant, and I share your sense that we'd fine each other pleasant companions... I think that some of the "defensiveness" shown in response to this comes from a level of discomfort that I created by speaking about DD in somewhat blunt and direct terms. It may be that one of the advantages to identifying as "DD" rather than as "BDSM" is that DD feels more traditional and so a bit more mainstream. Pushing on that perception could cause some people to feel that they need to defend the territory.

    TC -- I am glad you decided to comment, and I appreciated your careful approach to the places where we might not see "eye to eye." Please feel free to email any of us if you would like to do that. We're always happy to meet other like-minded people.

    Impish -- I did, in fact, use "most" as you describe, and very deliberately so. I don't think that anyone has any scientific data to base that judgement on, and in my case it is simply an overall feeling I get based on years and years of having the conversations about DD and BDSM in this format and others. I could, of course, have it wrong, but it is my impression that MOST relationships that are identified as DD have the wife controlling the what and when and how of the dynamic. Not ALL, but MOST.

    Amber -- thank you for making the point that you "outgrew" the place where you started in all of this -- DD. I think that does happen when people get into this and find themselves comfortable with their sexual and erotic orientation.

    Radha -- I am sorry that you have felt excluded and judged by what you call "elitist clubs" in the lifestyle. I have often joked that I've been thrown out of more lists than many people have ever belonged to... Oh well. Like you, I am in relationship with a Man who would never agree to be driven by all my "supposed to's." Around here, it is, and always will be His way, and that way is my way too.

    swan

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