Maybe it is just that, as a school teacher on summer break, I have more time to sit and think, but I am sure that in the last couple of weeks I have observed a number of instances where people who are nominally on the "small-s" side of power-based relationships express their views in a fashion that works to put them "up" compared to whoever they are engaged with in conversation. I saw it go down that way just a few days ago in the comment section of another blog. There is at least one Fetlife discussion where one "slave" is after someone else who doesn't do it "right."
I try not to get into these things. Generally when someone sounds off and displays arrogance, pride, conceit, or condescension, I figure that the conversation is over. I'm not inclined to get into a mud wrestling thing with someone who is "just ate up" (as T would put it).
I do wonder though if this particular move is actually an artifact of the power exchange dynamic itself? I wonder if, for some people, giving up power and control is so unsettling and so uncomfortable that the compensatory move is to attempt to gain some perceived "power" or position over someone else; a sort of playground bully response to feeling insecure and unsure.
If we were all chickens, I imagine it would be described as a scramble to establish where everyone stands in the "pecking order." Pecking order is a hierarchical system of social organization in animals. The basic concept behind the establishment of the pecking order is that it is necessary to determine who is the 'top chicken,' the 'bottom chicken' and where all the rest fit in between.
And that causes me to consider the question, "If someone claims to have relinquished the control to their Master/Dominant/HOH, but then turns around and 'Lords it Over' some other unsuspecting and non-consenting person, can they really claim to have entered honestly into their power-based relationship at all?" What does it say about the control that is in place in a person's life when they are running amok, putting the arm on everyone they can find? If that control doesn't extend to one's conduct in the larger world; if it ends at the front door (or the keyboard); if it is OK to behave like a total bitch outside the immediate gaze of the "Top" partner, then what is that? It makes me think that they are just pretenders -- playing at this whole business because it is what all the kewl kids are doing. Makes me want to smack somebody.
swan
I'm not on Fetlife since I can't really contribute, but I have certainly seen that dynamic play out in the world, my extended family, and my family of origin often enough. I do think it is exactly as you describe: an attempt to even things up, feel power and payback in another setting where they feel unchallenged. Makes me want to smack them, too.
ReplyDeleteok swan.. i do agree with you about some trying very hard to create a peaking order etc... but i am puzzling over the line you draw to not being comfortable in their role of giving over control /power....
ReplyDeleteAnd i say this because..if you have a group of people in a room and a job that needs doing.... it seems to me that someone will be task orientated and take charge to get the job done.. while others will be more sideline folks offering advise on how to do the job.. and others will be doing the job.. etc etc..
As i would probably be the one frustrated by lack of progress to take charge to get the damn thing done.. does that mean i am uncomfortable in my role of submissive..... or does it just mean i have no patience with dilly dallying??
you have given me food for thought that is for sure..
(oh and btw.. no adverse reaction to the stings - i am not allergic - and have just had a bug guy here who will take care of the nest tomorrow or Monday and i am to stay out of the front garden.. duh!!)
morningstar (owned by Warren)
Morningstar --
ReplyDeleteI wasn't thinking so much in terms of "getting things done," or "taking charge" in a team environment. What has really started me thinking along these lines is the seemingly very frequent occurence of one self-identified submissive or slave getting into "attack mode" with someone else. It just seems that it is becoming very common to find someone who is quick to point out the faults, failings, short comings, intellectual weaknesses, etc. of others. Often that sort of behavior is backed up by some sort of prideful, or boastful declaration of their superior education, or experience, or masochism, or sexual prowess, or joyful service orientation, or... Sometimes it is the "my Dom/Master/HOH is better than yours is," claim that is used as the currency for this kind of "counting coup." However it is done, I just wonder what it is that drives people who would, I think, be aspiring to grace, humility, cordiality, and a gentle spirit, to be so downright mean and ornery...
swan
I'm often that person myself. The difference, I think, is that competence and cooperation, the willingness to get the team going, and take charge when appropriate to get the job done is a good thing. It's the meanest and spitefulness that makes the "pecking and bleeding" stand out in a bad situation. I don't know if it's in their M/s relationship; I often look at that person's family of origin, powerlessness at work, abusive marriage, etc. I have no right to speak to power exchange relationships, but with that caveat I would say, IF the M/s relationship is related, I think it would be only if the whole relationship were the causal problem. The bottom line: people who are kicked either physically or emotionally will often find a way or a someone to kick back. Obviously this is not part of a healthy M/s relationship which would make someone feel safer and more secure. I would think it could go a long way to healing past damage in a person who was not too damaged from the past. I ramble..but just some thoughts. I love the way you make me think about people, relationships, emotions, and the common threads they weave back to my own life.
ReplyDeleteWell...
ReplyDeleteI've been a bitch before online. Never directly to a blogger in their comments, though. I don't remember doing so, anyway. I've ranted on my own blog about another blogger, though. But argue in their comments, no. I WILL argue with other commenters if they are giving the blogger a hard time, yeah, I'll jump in there. I'm protective that way. Sometimes too much so. *looks down guiltily*
As far as the "oneupmanship" thing goes, I don't think I've ever done that either. If I did, it wasn't intentional. I do try to share my thoughts if their post inspired any and I'll share how we do things, etc. But I'm not trying to seem better than anyone else.
All that being said, I do feel I'm an Alpha sub and I will be a bitch if I think it's warranted. Although I do strive to be understanding and humble and kind as much as I can, soft and giving and serving others; I am told I do that very well.
I find that in thinking about your post in relation to myself, it seems to me that my "inner bitch" comes out when I feel threatened or if I think my loved ones or friends are threatened. Or even if I feel I am being threatened. Then I think nothing of lashing out.
Hmmm...so, you are saying that reaction is not the right behavior for a sub? That we must strive to be kind and humble at all times, even times when you wanna smack someone? Interesting.
I guess you're right.
Dunno. I'll have to think on this s'more. I got mad at a commenter on my own blog some weeks ago and I tried to handle it with grace, at first. I deleted one comment he made that I thought was terrible about our granddaughter. Dan agreed with me it was the wrong thing to say, even if the commenter was joking, which he probably was, hard to tell with him, he's been reading me a long time and half the time I can't understand what the hell he's saying to me when he comments, lol.
But then he commented that I needed therapy based on all the rough things that have happened to us lately and HONEST TO GOD! I mean, PUHLEEZE! You know it's so difficult when people project on you based on your blog, swan and you other bloggers, you know what I mean. Drives me crazy. It's happened to me more than once over the years, commenters saying things that make you wonder just whose blog are they reading? 'Cause it surely can't be mine! lol
I know it's a small percentage but it's so annoying. Massive projection issues and rampant narcissism.
I tried to politely explain to him that the point of the POST was to show the progress I've made and how happy I am about it and wtf with the therapy crack and he came back with a long comment ranting about how much I need therapy and he's in therapy (oh really? So everyone needs to be? right...) and damn it!
I'm sorry but that just pissed me right off. How dare he or anyone suggest such a thing? Like he knows me? OMG! So I deleted his comment, told him why I deleted it, told him he should talk to his shrink about his obsession with my blog and then told him "back the fuck off".
Which wasn't very ladylike or sublike, heh.
So yanno...
Yeah. :(
I guess I could have handled it better.
I'm still sub, though.
Bitchy one, though, ahahahaha! "Bitchysub". I'm going to use that if I ever re-join Fet.
Meh, Fet. I do miss it (what a time-eater!) but I do not miss the neverending "you're doing it wrong" debates.
So what blog had the pecking order in their comments? Email me! :)
And yes, you inspired a long, rambling comment from me, didn't you? Must mean I need therapy, hehehe
@swan
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, "attack subs" have been around for about as long as the "chudwas".
This is one of the reasons that I highly encourage my property to take the blogging and forum-discussion "slaves" with a huge grain of salt, especially those that have set themselves up to be the "be-all, end-all" judges of who/what is slave and who/what is not.
The thing is, she (my girl) *knows* that it's my opinion at the end of the day that counts, but she can't help it when she reads this "wee" or that "lookitme" or she feels upset when she sees these so-called "examples" act in manners that would have me taking my girl offline for attitude adjustments.
I've seen too many people get caught up in their egos and their so-called status in the community. I think the attention and adulation gets to people's heads and inflates them beyond where they really are.
In places like Fetlife or the blogs, I really don't take much stock unless I know that person face to face and have judged their character and if that person is really worthy of being on a pedestal.
I do like your use of "chickens" because I have made comments to my girl that many of the loudest in blogs/online sound like clucking chickens...
Oh wait, I think I found the blog you are talking about!
ReplyDeleteWell, some people certainly think a LOT of themselves, good lord. :( See, it's like some of the commenters I've had; they think they know a person just from reading about them!
You notice that critical people like that almost never have a blog themselves? If they did, they wouldn't say things like that. They'd know better. Yeesh.
I don't believe I notice that many people, in typical OR power exchange relationships equating positive, balanced or kind attitudes or behavior with being a dominant or a submissive. And actually, although I dislike the outcome of that, I might be inclined to agree. Kindness, self control, and balanced perspectives are surely not exclusive to women in submissive positions in their relationships.
ReplyDeleteHowever, one would think, if you were engaging in a relationship that should take thoughtfulness and introspection, that the growth would automatically take you there? I have been disappointed to see that is often not the case, from DD forums where women lie to their HoH's without 'getting' the real impact on the trust they are supposedly trying to build, to D/s blogs where there is much whining and deceptive attempts at controlling their mate as the true focus. And I have seen dominants lie and cheat! Being the dominant doesn't make you an ethical person either.
On another note, (and I guess I am not a very good example of "a submissive") being submissive in my marriage has no impact on what role I take in other places or other relationships. I try hard to be kind, because I think it is the right way to treat people. I also push myself to say what I think needs to be said, and to lead when it is called for. Most people are multi-faceted...no? Now if only most people worked to treat each other with kindness and respect in all aspects of their lives.
Wouldn't count being warrior woman in defense of family or the down-trodden, that seems like a virtue to me.
ReplyDeleteI am just fascinated by the range of responses that this piece evoked.
ReplyDeleteMy initial thinking was kicked off by an encounter with another reader on another person's blog. I felt disrespected and condescended to, and so I simply checked out of the conversation. I imagine the person who stomped on my toes doesn't even realize what happened, and wouldn't understand my being offended in any event. Since there was no "up side" to getting into it, and since I do try to stay cognizant that my public behavior reflects on Master, I simply chose not to engage in an argument.
I never meant to imply that being a slave or a submissive equates to being a doormat. That isn't my experience, and it isn't the way that I perceive most of the people that I've come to know and respect within the lifestyle. The very best slaves/submissives, in my view, are precisely those who have strong opinions and considerable intellectual capital. They are in power-based relationships because that works for them and their partners. My view is that most relationships are "power-based," and that those of us who do it deliberately and with intent simply choose to use the energy it generates to help enhance our relatedness.
I also did not intend to get into a discussion about the how's and why's of defending and protecting those who, for whatever reason, might appear to need some sort of defense. I do think that when we perceive that someone is in need of us to get into "warrior-woman" mode (Thanks Impish!), that points to the behavior that I'm pointing to here -- the move to somehow get "one up" on someone else.
Ultimately, my basic question really was this: "What is the impetus for some people to engage in behavior that is abusive, offensive, mean-spirited, disrespectful, judgemental, and condescending toward others?"
swan
I knew that was your original question, Swan, I just wanted to meander off on my own spiral, heh. :)
ReplyDeleteOkay, I think the vast majority of the time people are just trying to be "helpful". (Note the quotes, heh) They don't realize they are being condescending and annoying. I saw this on Fet a lot and of course on blogs, too.
There are people who are being deliberately bitchy just to make trouble or get attention but they are a minority, imo.
I had more to say but I think I'll blog about it instead. It was getting long, even for long-winded moi! :)