The topic of punishment in power exchange relationships comes up every so often, and leaves me shaking my head almost every single time.
It's not that I don't understand the concept. I do. I'm no saint, and there have been times (relatively few) when He has undertaken to seriously punish me for some infraction or out and out bit of bad behavior. Every single one of those events has been purely awful -- not something that I ever plan to repeat.
Which is not to say that I don't have "discipline" in my life. That, to me implies that there are routines, expectations, patterns that are put in place, and which I follow because they serve to create growth and a sense of peace and purpose. Discipline is something which, in my view, fills an important role in the lives of most accomplished and aware adults, regardless of the "kink" side of their natures.
So it is really the idea of "punishment" that causes me to wonder about people who do it ALL THE TIME, over and over and over again, as the daily meat and potatoes of their relationship. Perhaps I am too literal about this, but it seems to me that punishment would be meted out for failure to perform in expected (or agreed upon) ways, or for simply behaving inappropriately. The thing I don't understand is this: if the expectations are clear, and the rules are understood, what is it that makes continual and repeated punishment necessary. Meet the expectations and follow the rules. Competent, ethical adults can do that. Done. No need for repeated punishment.
So. When I hear or read that someone is getting punished over and over again, multiple times a week, I make a guess about the dynamic. I posit that there is some manipulation occuring that creates a "punishment" scenario. Perhaps "punishment" is the only model that makes it seem "OK" to spank, or play sadomasochistically. Maybe the people involved are really into disciplinary style SM, and their "thing" requires some imagined or trumped up infraction in order to FEEL authentic, possibly there are a dozen other kinds of mind games that are at work to create the belief that punishment must be part of the regular routine in a power-based relationship. Whatever. It is all fine with me.
I just wish that I could hear the identifying words that would make it make more sense to me. Because I know -- KNOW -- that absent some sort of cognitive disability, there is no earthly reason for people to be getting really punished for real misbehavior on any kind of regular or frequent basis. It makes me crazy. I want to grab people by the collar and shake them and say, "grow up and behave!" But that's just me -- crotchety old woman that I've gotten to be.
swan
swan - I agree with you completely.
ReplyDeleteWe do not do punishment spankings. I am in control or my own behaviour, and know how a responsible adult should act. It would turn me on to be spanked as a punishment, but at the bottom, it would really be a mutually-agreed upon game, a setup I contrived and he bought into in order to have a spanking scene. It would actually be a reward for bad behaviour.
Hugs,
Hermione
swan
ReplyDeletei too agree with you..... sometimes i think people are being punished because they have no clear idea that is OK to spank/flog/whip just for the fun of it.. i think it makes them feel better to have a reason to punish........
Having said that..... when Sir and i were first together, i had a tremendously difficult time remembering to call Him Sir..... i didn't call Him by His given name.. i just didn't call Him anything i guess....... anyway .. it really bugged Sir...... friends tried to help me.. tried to get me into the habit of saying "Sir" suggesting i use it whenever speaking to a male... (trust me that didn't work well at all !!!)
Sir's punishment for not saying Sir.. (and i may have told you this already) was to have me bend at the waist (being naked of course) ass pointed in His direction.. spread my legs wide...... play with myself while i said " i must remember to say Sir" a designated number of times......
i am not sure how many times i actually did that.. seemed an awful lot at the beginning...... now Sir rolls off my tongue as easy as pie..... but i have to say .. i am not too sure it was the punishments that worked .. or the brain finally just "got it"!
morningstar (owned by Warren)
Swan, I also agree that true punishments should be rare, but a piece of the problem is simply language, again. Yes, some people like "Punishment", so there is an elaborate agreed upon play in the relationship, some partners are into bratting (manipulating) and being spanked, and then some people use the word 'punishment' to mean something way less severe than what you do, I think.
ReplyDeleteSometime ago it was eye opening for me to chat on IM with a few women and to find out exactly what they do, when, how...I learned that 'spank' and 'punish' did not mean the same thing to each of us, and these were women I thought I 'knew'.
One never knows what goes on behind closed doors and all that.
sara --
ReplyDeleteI am not, in any sense, attempting to be prescriptive here. Whatever people want to do within their consensual agreements is ok with me. Still, I would disagree with your intimation that "punishment" means different things in different contexts. I believe that punishment is an unpleasant or uncomfortable consequence that is administered with the intention of changing behavior. I do understand that people create a wide variety of scenarios around the intimation of "punishment," and that for some, this sort of charade can have a certain quality of spark and heat. Fine and good. However, I will insist that the intent behind such interactions is not REALLY to change undesirable behavior. In fact, such encounters often act, overtly or otherwise, to reinforce whatever behavior resulted in the "punishment." It is a game; played to answer to desires in the parties who choose to play it.
Punishment, in the sense that I mean the word, is not fun, not a game, not satisfying. It is an event that makes a change occur, and for those who engage in it with honesty, it is a rare occurence precisely because it is emotionally and physically devastating.
I imagine there are those who would disagree. That is fine. It only proves that I'm not a guru or an expert. I am simply one who believes words should mean what they mean.
swan
Swan, You said you:
ReplyDelete"wonder about people who do it ALL THE TIME, over and over and over again, as the daily meat and potatoes of their relationship."
I assumed you are reading on blogs where people describe their ongoing "punishments". I am also assuming what they mean and what you mean by that particular word is a different thing entirely.
"Punishment, in the sense that I mean the word, is not fun, not a game, not satisfying. It is an event that makes a change occur, and for those who engage in it with honesty, it is a rare occurrence precisely because it is emotionally and physically devastating."
No one could possibly go through that "ALL THE TIME", "over and over".
Are they mis-using the term? Certainly. I am sure you know many people do play at many aspects of their lives. I have personally seen little difference between the BDSM and DD communities than in r/l. People have a hard time seeing themselves or their behaviors honestly, and are not necessarily very committed to doing that anyway. I guess I sound a bit pessimistic tonight, but that is how I see it.
Swan...this 'crotchety old woman' leaves you a hug. I don't get frequent punishments either, if they are meant as punishments. I understand and accept that some get turned on by 'punishment play' - nothing wrong with that if its recognised as such.
ReplyDeletePunishment is a very rare occurrence in this household these days....I've learned what he expects and believe me there is no way punishment is enjoyable. It was different in the early days, I often got things wrong and possibly 'tested the boundaries' a little to check they were strong enough for me to feel safe to submit to the extent he wanted. Now I know they are such behaviour would let not only him down but myself too.
Thank you for this posting. Once again you've managed to write something which I've sometimes felt criticised for feeling....especially the 'grow up and behave' bit...smiles.
love and hugs to you, Raheretic and T xxx
There are certain blogs that I read, and I won't say which ones they are, that relate incidents of punishment for the same misdeed, over and over. Not that it isn't entertaining reading, but swan, I agree with you that obviously the punishment isn't effective. My personal thought is that it is bratting or enjoyment of the punishment scene.
ReplyDeleteI do get punished, though not physically, and it is a very strong deterrent. It's very effective, because I'll do anything to avoid it.
Hugs,
Hermione
I agree with a lot of what you said. I do think that in a lot of cases it has become the "excuse" that makes bdsm "okay". I think a lot of people really struggle with the notion that they either want to hurt someone or want to be hurt without having a reason to "hide" behind. It's "oh I'm not sick, I had to be punished. And that's okay." Personally, I suspect that a great majority of strictly DD relationships operate under that very "game".
ReplyDeleteAnd I also have to agree with some of what the one commenter said about a difference in definition for the word 'punishment'. I think in some cases 'discipline' would be a more appropriate word than 'punishment'.
I also want to point out that you've got to take into consideration the Dom's style. For instance, some time ago you wrote about a "snit" you had had with your Master, and while that's something that may not be a "punishable offense" in your household, it would be in mine. I would be punished for my snit (I AM punished for my snits) yet because I'm a human susceptible to human emotions, I continue to have snits. Repeatedly. But that's not to say that punishment isn't effective because I AM a much better person than I was a few years ago. I am learning, with every punishment, how to more appropriately (in slave-like fashion, I suppose) express my emotions. So even though I am repeating the same mistake, and it may seem to an outsider that I'm not learning or that it's not working, that's not the case between us.
Given that punishment plays a heavy role in our relationship, I really only take offense at one thing you've said: "The thing I don't understand is this: if the expectations are clear, and the rules are understood, what is it that makes continual and repeated punishment necessary. Meet the expectations and follow the rules. Competent, ethical adults can do that. Done. No need for repeated punishment."
I think I'm competent and ethical. But I'm not perfect. I'm flawed and I'm forgetful, I let my emotions rule me too much perhaps. It's just part and parcel of who I am. But that doesn't change Master's expectations of me. The administering of punishment, even for the same offense, does "train" me to meet those expectations.
So it's not always a deliberate attempt to manipulate anything, nor is it purposeful, willfull disobedience. It's just being human in a relationship that allows little room for it. ;-)
kaya
Hi Swan, me again!
ReplyDeleteI also get what you say about the failure/punishment cycle but despite being (at least I think so!) a competent and ethical adult I sadly often reak the rules, sometimes repeatedly (in for a penny in for a pound) despite the dire consequences. Even though most of "our rules" of cause and effect are designed to change my behaviour because it was destroying our relaionship and I did not want to do that, as kaya says, I am human and thus far from perfect all the time.
I do not think, for me at least, that failing to follow the rules is just a way to provoke a spanking which can thus "sanitise" my unspeakable inner spanko needs because I do get also regular maintenance spankings in addition to any punishment ones. But then, I've been wrong before, well just the once I think it was !!!
Hil
Dear All
ReplyDeletePlease excuse the rubbish typing in the above post, I really must clean the crumbs out of this keyboard, sorry!!
Hil
My thoughts on this are perhaps not relevant because I certainly don't have a tpe agreement with anyone and never have. That dynamic is not appropriate between my husband and I. Our personalities do not mesh in suitable ways for that.
ReplyDeleteThe other dominants in my life were unavailable to offer the reality of that in daily life, though I feel that way about M emotionally.
That being said, my reflection on this topic is that I have read some of these TPE agreements which are so frequently published on blogs and elsewhere. Some of them seem to have an endlessly long list of what feel to me to be nitpicky rules. I don't see how anyone can remember them all for one thing. For another, the fact that so many rules about the smallest aspect of a person's life needs to be regulated by someone resonates with me as a control issue...not real dominance. In my viewpoint, dominance is about power from within and it is not demonstrated by many rules about all sorts of things...it is demonstrated by simple authority of personality, respect for a submissive as an equal (yep a submissive is an equal even if she gives over power), kindness, an understanding of their submissive's basic personality and abilities and a joy in her company.
To me, that means that if a submissive is unable to remember all the rules all the time, there are too many...and if he's paying attention and really acting like the dominant, he'd recognize that and reduce the number to a manageable amount and restructure things so that there's structure that is uncomplicated by many rules, and made effectively simple by just a few rules that cover all.
Such as making a list of responsibilities...Period. Giving a few rituals that are intensely fun, erotic and reassuring, and create an onset of subspace easily...and that's it.
The other reason I think like this, is that if there's so damned many rules, any little break in the routine is cause for having to negotiate how to deal with every little one. And for crying out loud, life is life...its going to deal out constant upsets to rules. That's why children are raised with few but very effective rules.
So...I don't personally place the responsibility for how things are run on the submissive.
I place them squarely with the dominant...because he's supposed to be in charge right? He's not if this is going on. End of discussion on that one...its just a friggin fact.
Punishment? Don't get it because I behave. But when I don't, and Tom is "disappointed"....? Sucks worse that any spanking I EVER got!
ReplyDeleteI am a service sub. I am here to please and keep His home pleasant, comfortable, and relatively clean.
Subs/Slaves who "Brat" just to get punished, just don't get "IT", IMHO. If I wanted someone to role-play with me and punish me because I am a naughty girl, then I need to let someone know (UP FRONT) that that is my deal. If you just "Brat" to be spanked...you haven't negotiated your place in His world.
my 2-cents,
T