A very, very long time ago, when I was first exploring Domestic Discipline, I got caught up in a discussion on a listserve about a "hypothetical" situation where a Dominant or Master might ask the submissive partner to do something or make a choice that would be contrary to their values. I'm quite sure that I had all sorts of very carefully reasoned opinions on the subject, but I don't remember what they were exactly. I think I must have made the argument that the submissive (if they were submissive) would ultimately "go along" with the Dominant's point of view because I do remember that the "older," and more experienced list members kicked the shit out of me for being so naive and so "unprincipled."
Then, of course, life took its own path and I entered into a relationship that is based on and grounded in power-exchange. I have, over the course of these years, had times when I was asked (and sometimes required) to do things that I wasn't exactly crazy about. I've never encoutered an actual "ethical" dilemma in that process.
Last Saturday, we went as a family, to vote early in the upcoming election. It is our habit to research and discuss and decide on every issue and office prior to going to the polls. We are "political junkies" and we take the responsibility of voting very seriously. I sat down on the night before we headed to the Board of Elections to make us "cheat sheets." Our cheat sheets listed every choice we'c made for the various offices and the decisions we'd reached on every ballot issue.
At one point, regarding a ballot initiative, my "cheat sheet" listed: "Tom says yes / sue says no -- EEEEEKKKKK!" That was the best I could do on the evening before we went to the polls, and that simple statement conveyed the state of our conversation on the topic to that point. T commented on it as we sat at breakfast that morning -- and giggled just a bit at my consternation. Master said something offhand that left the sense out there that I would of course follow His lead on this -- but didn't really push it to the level of command.
Not really.
Except that, when I know what it is He wants me to do, that becomes, for me, a command. I did go off to the polls, and I did vote my conscience. I've thought about it ever since, and I am sure that all those "old and experienced" folks from that long ago DD list would be horrified at my lack of personal integrity. The simple truth is that I have the conscience of a slave...
It is an odd thing. I have an intellectual sort of discomfort with it. It seems contrary to the way I believe our political system ought to work. On the other hand, it seems perfectly reasonable and entirely in keeping with the nature of my life and our relationship. Perhaps there really is no way to reconcile the two realities. Maybe it all just is what it is. Thoughts?
swan
Wow Swan...I just don't know. Maybe this is why I am uncomfortable with the term 'slave' in the first place. To me it suggests one has given up all free will, all sense of identity as an independent person who must answer to her own self, in the final analysis. That is important to me, that I do answer to me.
ReplyDeleteGrant and I had this discussion a few months ago, and it did not leave us in a happy place at all. It also had to do with the upcoming election. Grant defines himself as a Conservative who happens to be registered as a Republican. I have always been a 'middle of the road' Democrat. Our views and votes are often not the same. For me it has been a challenge to come to terms with loving and deeply respecting a man who's political views I often disagree with. Our values are the same, but our solutions differ.
Our disagreement came about when Grant said to me that if I DID respect him and believed he would do what was best for our family, then I would follow his lead and vote as he saw fit. I was really deeply offended and felt a line had been crossed. To me voting is an expression of the fact that I am a person with a mind, morals and responsibilities, aside from my relationship. On the other hand, I do understand that he feels deeply about the issues that will affect our family, and feels his vote is a protective measure, and for me to act in disagreement with that is antithetical to the way we conduct our lives. A difficult dilemma.
For me, I feel that as much as we do function as one, in the end, we are two, and our personal responsibilities stand. Women did not have the vote for many years because they were viewed as an extension of their husbands (or fathers). We are not truly theirs, but our own, with the power to give ourselves to them as we see fit. For me the power comes in being able to freely give myself. Having the freedom is essential. At least that is how I feel.
Good topic! Sara
Hmmm. hmmm. hmmmm.
ReplyDelete*Master said something offhand that left the sense out there that I would of course follow His lead on this -- but didn't really push it to the level of command.*
I posit that you did Tom's bidding...by voting your conscious. I guess the question would be...what if he had "commanded" you to vote his way?
Also, I am just really curious about which issue you had a difference on. (but this is not a request to share...I know that is beside the point!
Tangerine -- I did do what He wanted.
ReplyDeleteI suspect that your question about what I would have done if He had "commanded" that I vote His way is really about how that would have "felt" to me. I suppose that there is no way to answer that fully since it didn't actually happen that way. I do think that a more directive approach might have caused me to struggle more than the softer approach that He took. Under the circumstances, I was left with the sense that it was my "choice" to comply with His wishes. The fact is that, every decision I make to comply is a choice -- and each time I decide to go with what He wants, I practice the submission that I've promised to give Him. In theory, practice makes perfect...
Oh... it was Issue 6.
swan
Sara -- I really appreciate your thoughtful and probing questions about this. I think your internal "conversation" about this is really indicative of how challenging it can be when the theoretical becomes concrete in our power-based relationships. I remember (a very long time ago) trying to imagine what it might mean to me if there came to be some point in the future where I'd be asked to relinquish my own personal opinions and perceived "rights" in favor of those of the One who held my submission. As I look back at it, I don't think it is possible to predict how that moment will "feel" in the event. Even now, having gone through this particular enactment of that dynamic, I am not feeling like I have much standing to speak to the whole question. I have one singular instance...
ReplyDeleteHere is some of the language from your comment that I found evocative:
...I am uncomfortable with the term 'slave'...it suggests one has given up all free will, all sense of identity as an independent person who must answer to her own self...if I DID respect him...I would follow his lead...I was ...offended...voting is an expression of the fact that I am a person with a mind, morals and responsibilities...he feels...his vote is a protective measure...for me to act in disagreement with that is antithetical to the way we conduct our lives...in the end, we are two...We are not truly theirs, but our own...Having the freedom is essential...
I don't see any problem with any of that. It seems to me that it is likely a true description and depiction of the life and dynamic that you and Grant have created together. It isn't ours, but it is really just fine.
Like you, I believe I am an individual with a mind, morals, and responsibilities. I very much understand and take seriously the responsibility to cast my vote with integrity, deliberation, and serious consideration. I was a full participant in the discussion we engaged in regarding candidates and issues. I stated my opinion about each candidate and every ballot issue. I listened carefully to the views expressed around our dinner table each night. In the end, my judgement was that following His lead on this was appropriate and consistent with my values and my understandings. I found that I could not, legitimately, hold to a view that I was right in this case and He was wrong. Given that, I was able to bend and simply follow His direction in this matter. It is not the "social studies class" answer that I teach, and it isn't the way I once saw myself, but it also isn't anathema. I don't see it as a loss of my personal freedom, but a realization of the freedom to choose the one I will follow. After all, my opinion was shaped by the input of plenty of other people (marketers, lobbyists, journalists, etc.), none of whom are as important to me, and none of whom have my trust or my committment to act as "theirs."
In the end, I belong not to myself, but to Him. I am glad to stand in that place. It works for me.
Thank you for engaging in the dialog for me. I wish you and Grant continued joy and satisfaction in the dynamic you are creating.
swan
swan,
ReplyDeletei think that it basically boils down to the balance between discomfort at voting as he thinks is right and the level of discomfort at disobeying (because i agree, that his making his expectations known, understandably becomes a directive to you, even if not implicitly stated). the tipping of the scales, i think, is in the issue itself. what i mean is, if the issue at hand was one that was of utmost importance to you, or one that you felt was uncompromisable, you may have chosen differently than you did. the question being how crutial does an issue need to be to tip the scales between obeying one's Master (which tops MY list of priorities), and doing our civil duties according to our own conscience?
but then, if it WAS an issue of such proportions, you probably wouldn't have had any disagreement on it in the first place, and thus not had to make that choice, or had any scales to tip. For if you had disagreements on basic issues, you most likely would not be as well-suited as you seem to be, nor get along as well.
see? it all works out.
i know the talk about free will and choices, etc., but i think that for many slaves/submissives among us, the ultimate motivating factor is our Masters and obeying their wishes. you say "conscience of a slave" and that phrase rang so true for me, because for me, it is not a matter of deciding what or what not to do. i would have to work very hard to get myself to do anything OTHER than what he wishes me to do. i don't see it as a lack of integrity. quite the contrary. i see it as a great amount of M/s integrity, and trust that he will always look out for your well being. in M/s the focus ceases to be me, me, me. it is rather Him, or us.
this subject may seem, on the face of it, contradictory. a point of conflict between personal ideas and M/s. but is it really?
warm regards,
rose
Swan, the written word always leaves us lacking in intent and tone. I hope you did not think I was in any way taking a swipe at you! "I believe I am an individual with a mind, morals, and responsibilities." That has always been clear. My comment about "slave" was simply the feelings that word still evokes in ME. I know your dynamic is different than ours, as it should be. We each develop, hopefully, what works for us, and sameness is not a requirement for relating in my book. Just making sure....
ReplyDeleteSara -- I didn't have ANY sense that you were "taking a swipe." Rather, I was and am grateful for your willingness to explore these questions with openess and honesty.
ReplyDeleteswan
rose --
ReplyDeleteI understand the logic of what you wrote here:
...it...boils down to the balance between discomfort at voting as he thinks is right and the level of discomfort at disobeying...the tipping of the scales...is in the issue itself...if the issue...was of utmost importance to you...you may have chosen differently ...but ...if it WAS an issue of such proportions, you probably wouldn't have had any disagreement on it in the first place...
I'm not going to argue that all of that doesn't make perfect sense -- it does. I'm just not entirely sure that it is really true for me and my dynamic(but I can't be sure because I've never really encountered a circumstance that really tests it). I do think that this is really a variant of the challenge that routinely gets put before those who claim to be "property" of another person. There is really nothing all that original about positing that a Master might, at some point, do something so egregious -- or require a slave to do something so outrageous -- that it would violate all the boundaries and precipitate the ending of the dynamic. It is a hypothetical that doesn't advance the discourse very far.
The truth is that He and I really are well matched. He is a Man that I love, honor, and respect. He is bright, and thoughtful, and wise, and I absolutely trust Him. That was all a foundational truth at the beginning of our movement into M/s and it remains true to this moment. In this instance, the push was very, very slight, and the response was entirely from me. I could have done the other and there would likely have been no negative consequence to speak of -- except that I would have known that I chose other than what He wanted. I also know that His "push" could be much more extreme. I am aware that I continue to vote BECAUSE He approves of that and allows it. The same is true for my continued work in my profession, my continued home ownership, and a host of other opportunities and privleges that I enjoy because it is His pleasure to allow them.
The notion that there is some line He might cross that would send me screaming, is really not so much about His character as it is about my understanding of what I've chosen. It really asks if I'm really, REALLY sure of all of this.
The answer? Yes. I am. Sure. It is possible that something could happen to change that, but it is the fact of this moment.
swan