I've deleted what was here. It should have never been put here. Ever.
I was wrong to ever think this way.
I was wrong to write this.
I have been wrong in more ways than I can even count.
Sorry seems pretty empty.
There's no easy way back.
Maybe if I can remember my place and live it for enough days, things will be better.
I'm just sorry. Sorry. Sorry.
Forever sorry.
sue
This is likely not helpful in the least...
ReplyDeleteBut your second "therefore" statement reminded me instantly of the "justification" I personally tried to make for suicide.
I know it might hurt people, but it feels like the only Right Thing to do because the things that I am are Bad Things. They'll get over the initial pain, and will be better in the long run.
I really didn't have anywhere to go with that... It just STRUCK me, you know?
I guess... I guess... Hrm. Though I have learned a lot from reading about your experiences (and others online) I have to admit I was quite naive about polyamorous relationships. Had I wanted to be spanked by someone... And that someone had been in a polyamorous relationship, I wouldn't have viewed my actions as even POTENTIALLY negative. I would have thought it was universally "okay" in ALL of "those relationships" for partners to engage in explorations into new/additional relationships. (I'll repeat the part about me being naive.)
So me being spanked by someone who had multiple partners already, well, I wouldn't have had CLUE it could cause any emotional issues. I mean, I'd KNOW I was inserting myself into already formed relationships in some sense, but I wouldn't know it could be BAD.
I guess... I guess it's like those take a penny/leave a penny dishes in stores. If I reach in and take a penny, even if that day I'm not giving on in return... Yes, I took money that didn't belong to me. I know that. But I would never consider it stealing, and I wouldn't think anyone else would either. It would shock me to learn someone thought of it that way. But that's because of how *I* use the dish. Someone else could come and swipe a few pennies every day, take them home, and save them to buy something later on. Same action, different intent.
I guess that's a long-winded way of saying "Personal intent matters, and it VARIES, so it can't be generalized into sweeping premises."
So while the EFFECT of these women might be the same (you don't like 'em... And I wouldn't either) the premise that you can assume their intent of thievery and disregard for your relationship isn't reasonable.
Hearing that all women who enter into a spanking relationship are by definition thieves, whores, or acting without thinking about the effects of their actions would be, in my head, a bit like saying everyone who takes a penny from the dish is a thief. Even though they're all doing the same thing - some are, some aren't.
Meh. That was confused, I think. Sorry.
In any case... Thank you for sharing. Really.
~Chloe
Hi Chloe --
ReplyDeleteThank you for entering into the dialog with me, and for positing some viable counter arguments to my thinking. I am pretty sure my thinking is flawed on this; driven by emotion, and not grounded in reasonableness. The fact that this feels bad to me does not make the intent or even lack of intent necessarily bad on the other side. I've got to get these other women into some different place in my cosmology. Doing that probably won't make me like them any better, but it might save me a lot of personal angst, and I'm ready for that to happen.
hugs, swan
You know Swan, it seems to me that your initial premise, that all the potential spanking partners (lets call them chickies?) are theives and whores isn't quite true.
ReplyDeleteThey are women who want to put themselves in the power of a man who is pretty honest about what he is and what he is looking for. They aren't being dishonest. And they aren't trying to hurt you.
But the fact is, that they are hurting you. And so whatever their intent is, doesn't really matter. I don't see any reason at all why you shouldn't hate them.
If they asked Him whether you minded, what would he say? That you did or you didn't or that it didn't matter?
If he said that you did mind and they went ahead, that would say something about them wouldn't it? And if he said that you didn't mind that would say something about Him, wouldn't it? And if he said that it didn't matter whether you minded or not, I think that would say something true about your relationship.
Did you ask if T minded all those years ago?
It seems to me that all you can do is be honest with yourself and with Him. Don't leave. That would be wrong and awful, you are correct about that.
But it seems to me there's no reason you shouldn't hate them. Hate away.
sin
swan:
ReplyDeleteyou are still a great debater.. and i truthfully can't find one 'out' or argument to dispute your premises.
i am left with more questions than answers... did T feel (when you arrived on the scene) the way you feel now??? and if yes.. how did you both work it through?? Perhaps it is not the same situation as you envision it to be???
And then i have to wonder dear swan.. where Raheretic fits into this debate of yours?? As Master surely He has some input ???
And somehow i keep thinking about your blog entry when you arrived home.. about how T was glad to have you home.. how she had found it "difficult" for lack of a better word.. to be a 24/7 slave,.. and as much as i laughed over your final definition of slave versus submissive...there was an underlying bit of truth to it too wasn't there??
And having said all that... you know i am the worst one to give any sort of advise or logical discussion to this debate of yours.. seeing as i have been there many times before... and was myself the "other woman" once upon a time
As i said at the beginning i have absolutely no answer to this debate or the merry go round you have found yourself on..... but i do know the answer is NOT packing your bags and disappearing in a puff of smoke...
go back dear swan and argue the other side of this debate... i think you need to turn it all around... and as a good debater.. you should (and can) debate the opposite side of the premise...
morningstar (owned by Warren)
I'm afraid I've become rather cynical about situations such as these, even as I continue to be prone to jealousy and insecurity when I am but one of many.
ReplyDeleteAround 10 years ago, before my submission was freed, I found myself involved with a man who supposedly had broken up with his girlfriend. We were all in the same social circle, although separated by 100s of miles.
I kept sensing a continuing attachment between them. The man kept saying it was over. Of course, it wasn't. Things went on in various ways for years, including a short period during which there were relationships on all 3 sides of the triangle. I suffered a lot all along the way, even as I tried my best to encourage them to be honest to themselves and to me.
In the last year, the man apologized for how shabbily I was treated. But meanwhile, I decided that people have to be responsible for their own relationships. I can't do it for them.
Meanwhile, I keep hearing from men who are trying to solve the problem of struggling with their needs as dominants. As sadists. They have arrived at various solutions in their primary relationships, involving varying degrees of openness. I know I should feel guilty about my place in the picture. But I don't. Maybe it's because I didn't seek them out. Maybe it's because of how honest they are about the situation. And maybe it's because after all these years of being hurt by others I've decided the hell with it. No one, in fact, is going to look after my needs and my feelings except for me myself.
That sounds rather ugly, coming out like that. But there it is. Meanwhile, I should point out that there really aren't as many men as I've made it sounds - and there is only one that matters. Plus I have no expectations of disrupting the lives of any of these men, nor of taking any bigger place in their lives than they have very clearly specified. I do know I command varying amounts of attention, but also expect I am helping to keep their lives in balance.
Don't know if any of this helps... I should admit that I'm not as calm about it all as I've perhaps implied, and do struggle at times both with my own part in the equation and with the existence of others in the harem and my own sense of security as to my own place.
Good luck getting things sorted out I suspect it's an ongoing process.
o.g.
sue, it is so distressing to see you doing this to yourself again.
ReplyDeleteI know from past experience that this "do-loop" of emotion you have re-entered is not reality based. So it is interesting that you are posing it as a logical argument as if some rational emotive therapeutic approach might somehow interrupt the knot you have yourself in.
Were that to be true, it might be valuable to note that there are no women contacting me to engage in spanking relationships and haven't been for a couple of years or so now. Even when there has been that kind of communication in the past, I have become really picky in terms of not being interested in service topping or in having secret side bar relationships around spouses or boy friends, or in courting romantic or otherwise sexual relationsips, which has effectively ended any prospect of any such potential relationships coming to fruition.
Now I know your reaction to that is, "yeah, yeah, but if there were to be a realistic option I would pursue it, so the fact that any other relationships you are reacting against are fantasies has no bearing for you." OK it is true that I have enjoyed adult consensual spanking most of my life and had I the opportunity within limits that did fit for me I might well pursue it....so yes, hypothetically this could occur. It is very unlikely, but it could occur. However, reality is there are no "thieves and whores" who are pursuing me as you would have this in your imagination.
You and I did meet on line. We did, entirely unintentionally on both our parts, come to develop the deepest of feelings. We did this with the full awareness of and in the plain view and with the participation of t. When we visited she was there with us whether here or in Colorado. When we decided to become a family we made the decision to do so as a family, with her complete awareness and volition. As you engage in the revisionist history you do when you engage in this guilt trip, you would have it that this was some clandestine, intentional, assault on t's relationship with me that you undertook to exploitively perpetrate. You forget that that scenario bears no relationship to anything that actually happened. You forget too that t is today very much a part of our family as are you, and I, and we three love each other and are very much intentionally involved in making our home and our family together as our love for each other continues and grows. That includes t's love for you, by the way.
No one has been here being spanked but you. No one has played with our toys. There are no conversations.
You have just returned from visiting your former home....the community where you grew up. You had a wonderful visit with your children and your grandson. Your son has a strong monogamous marriage. You were, I suspect, given an emotional "booster shot" of the good Catholic monogamous imprinting you grew up with, and now our intentional family seems to you to have become corrupt and just "wrong." Now you are fearing that you have become an unethical evil woman who has somehow seduced me to violate my marriage with t, and has led me to ruin my immortal soul by succumbing to the near occasion of sin personified as you. Those of us who are poly have to struggle to greater or lesser extents with our lifestyle's violating the ethos we were raised to believe. You are struggling with this dilema again.
I love you. I love t. You are both mine and I am yours. We are not sick or wrong or corrupt or unethical. There are no whores and thieves you included.
I love you,
Mine Always and All Ways,
Tom
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you've imagined.
I swear - the Holidays sure do mess with one's mind! I hope you shake this off soon, swan. Like some of the others here, I also think there isn't much to say that can counter argue your debate. The only way out is through your own mind and through your own arguments. Don't fall for the fallacy!
ReplyDeleteWishing you lots of peace,
radha
After reading both the Swan's Heart and the Heron Clan for years, this post really threw me...did I miss something? I know in the past you have had misgivings about "other women" but, lately things have seemed so, well, good for the three of you.....I guess I would have to quote Tom "Why do you do this to yourself/"
ReplyDeleteKaren
Having ducked out for the holiday, I have just now returned and so am a bit behind and not completely informed. The pain from you both is so deep, yearning, and raw. T. so clearly wants to use the power of her love to heal her family...I just am not sure what to say. I am thinking of you and your family. The strongest have our emotional flash pans where built up emotion seems to be lit; a side effect of living, I think. I hope a bit of time will help until it builds again. In marriages (and of course, yours is), they say there are a few central arguments that are never solved, indeed cannot be solved. Partners just learn to somehow live with them. They rise and quiet in a rhythm they learn to survive. My own marriage has them, sometimes they are quiet and only a little annoying. Other times they roar to life, my pain so great that I wonder if I can continue. I have learned the rhythm and that helps me hang in during the bad times, helps me talk back to that voice in my head saying the horrible stuff. Sigh.
ReplyDeleteSorry, did not mean to get into this stuff, but maybe it will help to see that others live this some too. My best thoughts are with you. I'm sorry you feel so sad and alone.
Tom, many of us will never match up perfectly with those we love. Please, please, don't let that make you doubt your character, your personality, your worth. It is not a fatal flaw. As you said, you've had what you wanted twice, but life changed. It may change again...please don't give up all hope, and certainly not faith and love for yourself.
there is nothing wrong with getting your feelings out, the trick is to know when you are just blowing off steam or releasing the pent up stuff and really expressing a valid thought. we all have times when we say things without thinking and reqret it. emotions and feelings are tricky and can be triggered by all kinds of things. just because we feel something doesn't make it true or rational. don't apologize for feeling. just realize feelings aren't fact, and sometimes its best to keep them to ourselves.
ReplyDeleteHugs to you Swan. I don't know all the details, but I can see that something has caused pain. Time and talking will ease it all, I'm sure.
ReplyDeletebutterfly
Sorry for what, huh? Sorry for putting your vulnerability out here? I admire you for what you write, even when you delete it later, although this is the first time that I can remember you deleting anything. I find my own blog very dry and that is mostly because I do not have the courage to put out my true feelings. I felt like you expressed your feelings, then later when those feelings changed, your deletion expressed that change. I believe that the love your all share is the conduit for all these truths!
ReplyDeletelove and peace,
radha